Here we have a little chat I had with a Muslim. There has been
little to no editing in this one. I found it to be a nice change
of pace from the sheep gentle reader. Hope you like it as well.
the_faith_of_ibrahim: morning squirrl
the_faith_of_ibrahim: as salamu alikum
the_faith_of_ibrahim: peace be unto you squirrel624: thanks
squirrel624: you in the sheep rooms?
the_faith_of_ibrahim: loooooool
the_faith_of_ibrahim: the sheep rooms???
the_faith_of_ibrahim: huh??
the_faith_of_ibrahim: lol squirrel624: the christian chats
squirrel624: "sheep"
squirrel624: get it?
the_faith_of_ibrahim: LOOOOL
the_faith_of_ibrahim: LOL
the_faith_of_ibrahim: but Islam
the_faith_of_ibrahim: is a beautiful deen
the_faith_of_ibrahim: and Quran is a beautiful book
the_faith_of_ibrahim: its a SPIRTUAL faith
the_faith_of_ibrahim: that makes sense to the Intellect... squirrel624: ahhh there is that word, "faith"
the_faith_of_ibrahim: AMEEEEEN
the_faith_of_ibrahim: faith
the_faith_of_ibrahim: and
the_faith_of_ibrahim: spirtuality squirrel624: can you test faith to show the truth? is it demonstrable?
squirrel624: the sheep hate that question
the_faith_of_ibrahim: lol
the_faith_of_ibrahim: oh yes they do.....
the_faith_of_ibrahim: so how are you ?? squirrel624: i had a happy little talk with a christian, and
boy was he hate filled and unhappy. i put the thing up at my site...
and i have already recieved afew mails about it
the_faith_of_ibrahim: and how is life?? squirrel624: the same i guess
the_faith_of_ibrahim: this is celestine
the_faith_of_ibrahim: currect?? squirrel624: no,
squirrel624: i was under violent cupcake
the_faith_of_ibrahim: LOOOOL
the_faith_of_ibrahim: oh yeah
the_faith_of_ibrahim: OH MY GOODNESS
the_faith_of_ibrahim: yes your the man squirrel624: lol
the_faith_of_ibrahim: that WAS BLASTING THEM
the_faith_of_ibrahim: looooooool
the_faith_of_ibrahim: mashAllah
the_faith_of_ibrahim: its the only HUMBLE way I can put that
the_faith_of_ibrahim: looool
the_faith_of_ibrahim: your Good squirrel624: this is my normal handle,. i use the cupcake to
mess with the sheep
the_faith_of_ibrahim: very......
squirrel624: thanks
the_faith_of_ibrahim: VIOLENT CUPCAKE
the_faith_of_ibrahim: LOOOOL
the_faith_of_ibrahim: welcome.. squirrel624: i am working on a small pic for it... a sinister
looking cupckae..LOL
the_faith_of_ibrahim: LOOOOOOOOOOOOL
the_faith_of_ibrahim: SINISTER???
the_faith_of_ibrahim: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
the_faith_of_ibrahim: <<BOWS TO THE MAN
the_faith_of_ibrahim: YOU ARE AWESOME
the_faith_of_ibrahim: but we ask you humbly to use your mind
the_faith_of_ibrahim: Read the Quran
the_faith_of_ibrahim: and come to it with the same attacks
the_faith_of_ibrahim: as to the Bible
the_faith_of_ibrahim: fair is fair
the_faith_of_ibrahim: Please Keep in mind that Muslims
the_faith_of_ibrahim: the followers of Islam
the_faith_of_ibrahim: are very bad examples
the_faith_of_ibrahim: <<self included
the_faith_of_ibrahim: BUT QURAN
the_faith_of_ibrahim: is a very poweful
the_faith_of_ibrahim: and beautiful text
the_faith_of_ibrahim: there is no magic wands squirrel624: well, i do not believe that a god exists, and
doubt very seriously a book can show the existance there of the_faith_of_ibrahim: YES IT DOES sound very incredible squirrel624: beautiful text is one thing, the existance of
a god is another
the_faith_of_ibrahim: like a violent cupcake squirrel624: lol
the_faith_of_ibrahim: agreed...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: well...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: what can we use to define
the_faith_of_ibrahim: proof???
the_faith_of_ibrahim: any ground rules?? squirrel624: demostrable evidence that is repeatable and shows
that a god exists BEYOND a shadow of a doubt
the_faith_of_ibrahim: but to show something is repetable
the_faith_of_ibrahim: would I not need physical tools
the_faith_of_ibrahim: and instruments???
the_faith_of_ibrahim: Please here how Quran
the_faith_of_ibrahim: defines Allah=the deity
the_faith_of_ibrahim: holy quran 112
the_faith_of_ibrahim: this is a loose translation of the meaning squirrel624: hmm yeppers i would imagine so. if it is regulated
to personal experience alone, then it is all subjective.
the_faith_of_ibrahim: QUL HUWA LAHU AHAD.... SAY ALLAH IS ABSOLUTE..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: ALLAHU SAMAD
the_faith_of_ibrahim: .... ALLAH IS THAT UPON WHICH ALL IS DEPENDENT squirrel624: also, the quran is not an unbiased book, therefor
it could not be used as "proof" what we need is "objective"
proof
the_faith_of_ibrahim: UPON BUT IS INDEPENT OF ALL..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I AGREE....
squirrel624: so leaving the quran away, what do we have?
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I AM JUST TRYING TO GIVE what the QUran
says
the_faith_of_ibrahim: because I am saying that I dont think the
Quran squirrel624: i know
squirrel624: dont get me wrong, i know what you mean
the_faith_of_ibrahim: is insulting to the intellect..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: o.k
the_faith_of_ibrahim: well on the criteria
the_faith_of_ibrahim: you gave above...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: for example
the_faith_of_ibrahim: science
the_faith_of_ibrahim: has stated
the_faith_of_ibrahim: that their are subatomic
the_faith_of_ibrahim: particles squirrel624: okay...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: that phase in and out of material existence
the_faith_of_ibrahim: its existence
the_faith_of_ibrahim: but not material
the_faith_of_ibrahim: this is not quoted verbatim
the_faith_of_ibrahim: btw
the_faith_of_ibrahim: and there is an interesting article iN the
times magazine
the_faith_of_ibrahim: 1998 TIME MAGININE
the_faith_of_ibrahim: DON'T KNOW IF ITS
the_faith_of_ibrahim: JUNE OR JULY
the_faith_of_ibrahim: called the multi verse theory
the_faith_of_ibrahim: mind you it said theory
the_faith_of_ibrahim: but there were many aspects of this article
the_faith_of_ibrahim: very deep... squirrel624: okay, does this prove god, or does it prove there
are sub atomic particles that phase?
the_faith_of_ibrahim: what the Quran does not do...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: it proves that one cannot define reality
the_faith_of_ibrahim: based upon material substance
the_faith_of_ibrahim: that is all... it proves thus far..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I agree...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: all matter is actually energy condensed
the_faith_of_ibrahim: through slow moving vibrations
the_faith_of_ibrahim: as well... squirrel624: aha, then if one cannot prove reality based upon
material substance, then reality is unprovable, as all we have
is material substance to base reality upon. would you agree? there
demostrable things that can be shownover and over again
theat registers on devices, and such..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: so there is predicatbility in the universe??
the_faith_of_ibrahim: cause and effect?? squirrel624: to a certain degree yes.
the_faith_of_ibrahim: one of the thing Allah says in Quran
the_faith_of_ibrahim: is that do they not see
the_faith_of_ibrahim: that thy lord is the cause of all causes
the_faith_of_ibrahim: and in the scientific community
the_faith_of_ibrahim: when it gets down too it
the_faith_of_ibrahim: they have a dispute amongst themselves... squirrel624: then who caused god?
the_faith_of_ibrahim: is theree an infinite number of chain of
events or an ultimate cause???
the_faith_of_ibrahim: Who caused time???
the_faith_of_ibrahim: with out the sun and the moon
the_faith_of_ibrahim: time would still exist correct?? squirrel624: sure
the_faith_of_ibrahim: some say time is self existant
the_faith_of_ibrahim: and we just use light to measure time squirrel624: but there would be nothing and no one to be there
to define the concept
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I agree....
the_faith_of_ibrahim: but so is it possible that if time could
be self existant
the_faith_of_ibrahim: that God could be self existant???
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I do say COUDL
the_faith_of_ibrahim: COULD.. squirrel624: ah but you are placing time as a "being"
or "thing" that exists.. when actually time does not
"exist" the "concept" of time exists.. know
what i mean?
the_faith_of_ibrahim: i AGREE
the_faith_of_ibrahim: MASHALLAH
the_faith_of_ibrahim: you can reason VERY good
the_faith_of_ibrahim: nothing gets past you squirrel624: i try lol
the_faith_of_ibrahim: its concept
the_faith_of_ibrahim: THATS WHY IN ISLAM
the_faith_of_ibrahim: THE WORD FOR REALITY
the_faith_of_ibrahim: IS AL HAQQ
the_faith_of_ibrahim: WHICH means the truth
the_faith_of_ibrahim: which is acutally according to Islam
the_faith_of_ibrahim: one of hte 99 names of Allah
the_faith_of_ibrahim: that Allah is the only Truth
the_faith_of_ibrahim: and all other things are concept
the_faith_of_ibrahim: this is why quran says
the_faith_of_ibrahim: QUL HUWA LAHU AHAD
the_faith_of_ibrahim: SAY ALLAH IS ABSOLUTE... squirrel624: but does that prove the existance of god?
the_faith_of_ibrahim: what is existance??
the_faith_of_ibrahim: and how do we define God???
the_faith_of_ibrahim: if we define God as a soda can
the_faith_of_ibrahim: God exist by default
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I find it interesting
the_faith_of_ibrahim: to note actually
the_faith_of_ibrahim: in the Quran
the_faith_of_ibrahim: the first revelation given to muhamemd was squirrel624: well you can observe a soda can, you can show
a soda can exists by occupying space, it has mass, it has volume,
others can observe the can, feel the can and conclude repeatedly
it exists...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: IQRA bismil rabikal lathee khalaq read in
the name of Thy lord that created man from something which clings
the_faith_of_ibrahim: Khalaqal innsana min alaq iqra warabukal
aqram READ IN the name of they lord that TAUGHT MAN THE USE OF
THE PEN TAUGHT MAN THAT WHICH he did not know..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: but for me the can is not God becaue
the_faith_of_ibrahim: it is not the cause of all causes
the_faith_of_ibrahim: and one can reasonably assume this..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: however why I gave those verses above is
that ...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: it teaches that we have BEEN TAUGHT our
concepts
the_faith_of_ibrahim: for defining things and most notably language squirrel624: aha. so belief in god is a learned thing?
the_faith_of_ibrahim: yes I would say that...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: we are not a feel good faith
the_faith_of_ibrahim: brother..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: the quran commands us to ponder
the_faith_of_ibrahim: challenge
the_faith_of_ibrahim: and to reflect..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: upon its meanings..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: the Quran does not define God as a MAN OR
WOMAN squirrel624: i see. so one one would study the quran and come
to the conclusion that it is just a myth like christianity, what
then?
the_faith_of_ibrahim: an ANTHROPMORPHIC being...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: squirrel IF
the_faith_of_ibrahim: IF they come up with such a conclusion
the_faith_of_ibrahim: than the search continues
the_faith_of_ibrahim: however I would like to say at this juncture..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: that the quran gives challenges squirrel624: then by that the "truth" would not be
the quran yes?
the_faith_of_ibrahim: unlike the bible that is even scared to
think about itself
the_faith_of_ibrahim: or mention itself..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I AGREE WITH THAT...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: you make an Excellent point.. squirrel624: thank you
the_faith_of_ibrahim: welcomme..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: the quran says
the_faith_of_ibrahim: this which I find interesting..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: 4:85 had this been from any other than ALLAH
surely
the_faith_of_ibrahim: you would find in it a great deal of inconsistency
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I WOULD like to point out
the_faith_of_ibrahim: that any book claiming to be from God
the_faith_of_ibrahim: would be free from eternal error?
the_faith_of_ibrahim: would you concede that atleast
the_faith_of_ibrahim: that is a point
the_faith_of_ibrahim: be it true or not?? squirrel624: if the definition of god would be that it was
a "perfect" being yes
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I dunno even If I would say perfect....
being...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: because what would it haave
the_faith_of_ibrahim: to measure up to?
the_faith_of_ibrahim: or compare too? squirrel624: true, but the most widley held veiw is that of
perfection.
the_faith_of_ibrahim: well people can ask
the_faith_of_ibrahim: If God is all poweful
the_faith_of_ibrahim: can he make a God more poweful than him
the_faith_of_ibrahim: to destroy him??
the_faith_of_ibrahim: or if God is all powerful
the_faith_of_ibrahim: can he make a stone
the_faith_of_ibrahim: that he cannot move
the_faith_of_ibrahim: if you say yes your damned
the_faith_of_ibrahim: if yousay no your damned
the_faith_of_ibrahim: either way they win
the_faith_of_ibrahim: lol squirrel624: lol yes
the_faith_of_ibrahim: its like asking
the_faith_of_ibrahim: how many angles in a circle?? squirrel624: but if god was all powerful as they claim, then
he would be able to do these things, as he is "all"
powerfull
the_faith_of_ibrahim: yes but if he makes the stone
the_faith_of_ibrahim: that he "cannot" lift up squirrel624: remember, logic does not mix well with faith...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: than ...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: faith for me is not blind
the_faith_of_ibrahim: and as a Muslim
the_faith_of_ibrahim: we cannot belive in blind faith
the_faith_of_ibrahim: we must have
the_faith_of_ibrahim: well rationalized faith
the_faith_of_ibrahim: for example
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I go on a plane..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I realise this plane before in the past
the_faith_of_ibrahim: has flown several missions
the_faith_of_ibrahim: sucessfuly
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I am assuming again
the_faith_of_ibrahim: it will do the same
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I have FAITH in that situation
the_faith_of_ibrahim: all will go well
the_faith_of_ibrahim: but its well reasoned..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I hope I dont have to use a parachute squirrel624: yes, but in this example, you have a situation
that you can rather be assured of, since the plane exists, and
has been shown repeatedly to be in service, and sound mechanically.
thru observation you conclude that it is safe, and will fly with
you in it, this conclusion can be reached by many many people
at the same time in an objective way, and is demostrable. it is
really not faith, but reasoned conclusion. know what i mean?
the_faith_of_ibrahim: yes I agreee. but for me faith means belief..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: and I am really assuming squirrel624: i see.
the_faith_of_ibrahim: that I will get their.. although.. squirrel624: so, would you say belief equals knowledge?
the_faith_of_ibrahim: its a REASONABLE assumption if the two can
coincide.
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I will say this quoted from Prophet Muhammeed..
the_faith_of_ibrahim: I do not like the believer who is ignorant
do nor to I like the scholar who does not belive..."
the_faith_of_ibrahim: the beliver who is ignorant is doing so
out of just that IGNORANCE...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: the scholar out of any one should be able
to put some things together and realise their is greater wisdom...
to be sought.. squirrel624: and of that wisdom points to the non existance
of a god?
squirrel624: i have 4 definitons of faith----
the_faith_of_ibrahim: wisdom points to the non existance of...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: A god that needs sons...or has a penis... squirrel624: 1) Faith as trust for an important belief. So
whether or not the faith is good depends on the reliability of
what one trusts in, and whether the believer knows it to be reliable.
the_faith_of_ibrahim: the belief in many competing gods... squirrel624: 2) Faith as not necessarily a “sure belief”, but
rather an only hope. Examples would be Pascal’s Wager or hoping
that if your stranded on an island and build a fire, a plane will
see it and rescue you, even though no plane may see it. So you
don’t necessarily believe the plane will come though you might
tell yourself it will, for motivation, because if it doesn’t come
it doesn’t matter that you built the fire cause your dead
the_faith_of_ibrahim: O.K the first one is interesting indeed.. squirrel624: 3) Faith presumed to mean “believing without evidence”.
This is a popular definition, popularized by “believer’s” that
don’t realize how stupid it is to “believe without evidence”,
and non-religious types who use these believers as straw men,
or they have a deferent way of defining “belief” or “evidence”,
then I do.
the_faith_of_ibrahim: seccond one is def christianity lol
the_faith_of_ibrahim: o.k the fourth?? squirrel624: 4) Faith as “trust in god”, which means trust
in a supposed prophet of “God”, or for one who thinks they are
a prophet who talks to God, trust that burning bushes tell the
truth, etc. This vague definition usually comes from the bible,
in this culture. A roman soldier is given a pat on the head for
believing that jesus could heal his child from a long distance.
“blessed are those who believe without seeing”. “faith is… the
evidence of things unseen”. It is somewhat unclear whether the
bible is saying that it has logical evidence for god, even though
one may not see the evidence with their eyes, or whether it is
saying that it does not even have logical type evidence. squirrel624: One argument for the latter is that logical evidence
would keep people from having the freedom to choose what to believe,
though it seems to me it would also make them fools for believing.
I wouldn’t knowingly believe what I could choose not to, I believe
what I am forced to by the evidence. The only choice is whether
or not to dig for the evidence
the_faith_of_ibrahim: GOOD POINTS
the_faith_of_ibrahim: SOLID MASHALLAH
the_faith_of_ibrahim: excellent...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: YOU READ ALOT EH?? squirrel624: yes i do squirrel624: i try to be up to date on the theology stuff,
as it would be stupid of me to argue against something i have
no clue about
the_faith_of_ibrahim: true...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: Do you think the Universe is self existant??
the_faith_of_ibrahim: or that there is an infinite number of chain
of events that keeps going an going and goin?
the_faith_of_ibrahim: to me that answer lies alot of truth... squirrel624: hard to say. i am not that well versed in that
area...all i can give is speculation, and poor ones at that
the_faith_of_ibrahim: <<is interested in hearing your specualtion
about it... squirrel624: well i firmly believe we will never "know"
as we were not there when it all began if it indeed had a begining.
we can make up all types of theory as to what and why and how,
but it all rests upon the fact we do not "know" or ever
will. Thus to me it is a non point, and useless in debates and
such. Since we define reality limited to our own perceptions about
the universe, we have a "belief" as to the origins of
the universe.
the_faith_of_ibrahim: very true... squirrel624: I believe it is possible that it has existed always.
but came into "existance" once the reasoning abilities
formed in man.
the_faith_of_ibrahim: good point subhanAllah!!!!!!
the_faith_of_ibrahim: basically taught man that which he knew
not??? squirrel624: hmmm you could see it that way yes.
squirrel624: lol
the_faith_of_ibrahim: squirrel624: well my friend i need to run off to work, and
play slave boy for a few hours.
the_faith_of_ibrahim: LOOOOOOOL SLAVE BOY EH??
the_faith_of_ibrahim: PLEASE KEEP IN TOUCH and let me say lastly.. squirrel624: take care, and i hope to converse more with youo...
this was fun, and completely
squirrel624: non agressive...says alot about the christinas huh?
squirrel624: oops christians...
the_faith_of_ibrahim: any good you have recied from me ...All
praise be to Allah and any mistakes in Conveying anything to you
about this IS only from myself....
the_faith_of_ibrahim: peace be unto you squirrel624: thank you friend, till later... and be good in
the sheep rooms
