Pleasant Muslim Chat!


  • Here we have a little chat I had with a Muslim. There has been little to no editing in this one. I found it to be a nice change of pace from the sheep gentle reader. Hope you like it as well.

  • the_faith_of_ibrahim: morning squirrl
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: as salamu alikum
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: peace be unto you
    squirrel624: thanks
    squirrel624: you in the sheep rooms?

    the_faith_of_ibrahim: loooooool
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: the sheep rooms???
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: huh??
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: lol
    squirrel624: the christian chats
    squirrel624: "sheep"
    squirrel624: get it
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: LOOOOL
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: LOL
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: but Islam
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: is a beautiful deen
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: and Quran is a beautiful book
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: its a SPIRTUAL faith
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: that makes sense to the Intellect...
    squirrel624: ahhh there is that word, "faith"
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: AMEEEEEN
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: faith
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: and
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: spirtuality
    squirrel624: can you test faith to show the truth? is it demonstrable?
    squirrel624: the sheep hate that question
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: lol
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: oh yes they do.....
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: so how are you ??
    squirrel624: i had a happy little talk with a christian, and boy was he hate filled and unhappy. i put the thing up at my site... and i have already recieved a few mails about it
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: and how is life??
    squirrel624: the same i guess
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: this is celestine
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: currect??
    squirrel624: no,
    squirrel624: i was under violent cupcake

    the_faith_of_ibrahim: LOOOOL
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: oh yeah
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: OH MY GOODNESS
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: yes your the man
    squirrel624: lol
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: that WAS BLASTING THEM
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: looooooool
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: mashAllah
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: its the only HUMBLE way I can put that
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: looool
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: your Good
    squirrel624: this is my normal handle,. i use the cupcake to mess with the sheep
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: very......
    squirrel624: thanks
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: VIOLENT CUPCAKE
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: LOOOOL
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: welcome..
    squirrel624: i am working on a small pic for it... a sinister looking cupckae..LOL
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: LOOOOOOOOOOOOL
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: SINISTER???
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: <<BOWS TO THE MAN
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: YOU ARE AWESOME
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: but we ask you humbly to use your mind
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: Read the Quran
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: and come to it with the same attacks
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: as to the Bible
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: fair is fair
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: Please Keep in mind that Muslims
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: the followers of Islam
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: are very bad examples
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: <<self included
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: BUT QURAN
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: is a very poweful
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: and beautiful text
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: there is no magic wands
    squirrel624: well, i do not believe that a god exists, and doubt very seriously a book can show the existance there of
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: YES IT DOES sound very incredible
    squirrel624: beautiful text is one thing, the existance of a god is another
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: like a violent cupcake
    squirrel624: lol
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: agreed...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: well...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: what can we use to define
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: proof???
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: any ground rules??
    squirrel624: demostrable evidence that is repeatable and shows that a god exists BEYOND a shadow of a doubt
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: but to show something is repetable
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: would I not need physical tools
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: and instruments???
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: Please here how Quran
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: defines Allah=the deity
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: holy quran 112
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: this is a loose translation of the meaning
    squirrel624: hmm yeppers i would imagine so. if it is regulated to personal experience alone, then it is all subjective.
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: QUL HUWA LAHU AHAD.... SAY ALLAH IS ABSOLUTE..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: ALLAHU SAMAD
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: .... ALLAH IS THAT UPON WHICH ALL IS DEPENDENT
    squirrel624: also, the quran is not an unbiased book, therefor it could not be used as "proof" what we need is "objective" proof
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: UPON BUT IS INDEPENT OF ALL..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I AGREE....
    squirrel624: so leaving the quran away, what do we have?
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I AM JUST TRYING TO GIVE what the QUran says
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: because I am saying that I dont think the Quran
    squirrel624: i know
    squirrel624: dont get me wrong, i know what you mean

    the_faith_of_ibrahim: is insulting to the intellect..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: o.k
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: well on the criteria
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: you gave above...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: for example
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: science
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: has stated
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: that their are subatomic
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: particles
    squirrel624: okay...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: that phase in and out of material existence
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: its existence
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: but not material
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: this is not quoted verbatim
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: btw
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: and there is an interesting article iN the times magazine
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: 1998 TIME MAGININE
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: DON'T KNOW IF ITS
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: JUNE OR JULY
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: called the multi verse theory
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: mind you it said theory
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: but there were many aspects of this article
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: very deep...
    squirrel624: okay, does this prove god, or does it prove there are sub atomic particles that phase?
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: what the Quran does not do...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: it proves that one cannot define reality
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: based upon material substance
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: that is all... it proves thus far..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I agree...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: all matter is actually energy condensed
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: through slow moving vibrations
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: as well...
    squirrel624: aha, then if one cannot prove reality based upon material substance, then reality is unprovable, as all we have is material substance to base reality upon. would you agree? there demostrable things that can be shown over and over again theat registers on devices, and such..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: so there is predicatbility in the universe??
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: cause and effect??
    squirrel624: to a certain degree yes.
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: one of the thing Allah says in Quran
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: is that do they not see
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: that thy lord is the cause of all causes
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: and in the scientific community
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: when it gets down too it
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: they have a dispute amongst themselves...
    squirrel624: then who caused god?
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: is theree an infinite number of chain of events or an ultimate cause???
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: Who caused time???
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: with out the sun and the moon
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: time would still exist correct??
    squirrel624: sure
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: some say time is self existant
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: and we just use light to measure time
    squirrel624: but there would be nothing and no one to be there to define the concept
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I agree....
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: but so is it possible that if time could be self existant
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: that God could be self existant???
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I do say COUDL
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: COULD..
    squirrel624: ah but you are placing time as a "being" or "thing" that exists.. when actually time does not "exist" the "concept" of time exists.. know what i mean?
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: i AGREE
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: MASHALLAH
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: you can reason VERY good
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: nothing gets past you
    squirrel624: i try lol
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: its concept
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: THATS WHY IN ISLAM
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: THE WORD FOR REALITY
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: IS AL HAQQ
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: WHICH means the truth
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: which is acutally according to Islam
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: one of hte 99 names of Allah
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: that Allah is the only Truth
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: and all other things are concept
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: this is why quran says
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: QUL HUWA LAHU AHAD
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: SAY ALLAH IS ABSOLUTE...
    squirrel624: but does that prove the existance of god?
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: what is existance??
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: and how do we define God???
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: if we define God as a soda can
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: God exist by default
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I find it interesting
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: to note actually
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: in the Quran
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: the first revelation given to muhamemd was
    squirrel624: well you can observe a soda can, you can show a soda can exists by occupying space, it has mass, it has volume, others can observe the can, feel the can and conclude repeatedly it exists...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: IQRA bismil rabikal lathee khalaq read in the name of Thy lord that created man from something which clings
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: Khalaqal innsana min alaq iqra warabukal aqram READ IN the name of they lord that TAUGHT MAN THE USE OF THE PEN TAUGHT MAN THAT WHICH he did not know..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: but for me the can is not God becaue
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: it is not the cause of all causes
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: and one can reasonably assume this..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: however why I gave those verses above is that ...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: it teaches that we have BEEN TAUGHT our concepts
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: for defining things and most notably language
    squirrel624: aha. so belief in god is a learned thing?
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: yes I would say that...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: we are not a feel good faith
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: brother..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: the quran commands us to ponder
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: challenge
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: and to reflect..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: upon its meanings..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: the Quran does not define God as a MAN OR WOMAN
    squirrel624: i see. so one one would study the quran and come to the conclusion that it is just a myth like christianity, what then?
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: an ANTHROPMORPHIC being...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: squirrel IF
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: IF they come up with such a conclusion
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: than the search continues
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: however I would like to say at this juncture..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: that the quran gives challenges
    squirrel624: then by that the "truth" would not be the quran yes?
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: unlike the bible that is even scared to think about itself
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: or mention itself..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I AGREE WITH THAT...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: you make an Excellent point..
    squirrel624: thank you
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: welcomme..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: the quran says
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: this which I find interesting..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: 4:85 had this been from any other than ALLAH surely
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: you would find in it a great deal of inconsistency
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I WOULD like to point out
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: that any book claiming to be from God
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: would be free from eternal error?
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: would you concede that atleast
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: that is a point
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: be it true or not??
    squirrel624: if the definition of god would be that it was a "perfect" being yes
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I dunno even If I would say perfect.... being...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: because what would it haave
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: to measure up to?
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: or compare too?
    squirrel624: true, but the most widley held veiw is that of perfection.
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: well people can ask
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: If God is all poweful
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: can he make a God more poweful than him
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: to destroy him??
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: or if God is all powerful
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: can he make a stone
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: that he cannot move
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: if you say yes your damned
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: if yousay no your damned
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: either way they win
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: lol
    squirrel624: lol yes
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: its like asking
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: how many angles in a circle??
    squirrel624: but if god was all powerful as they claim, then he would be able to do these things, as he is "all" powerfull
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: yes but if he makes the stone
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: that he "cannot" lift up
    squirrel624: remember, logic does not mix well with faith...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: than ...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: faith for me is not blind
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: and as a Muslim
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: we cannot belive in blind faith
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: we must have
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: well rationalized faith
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: for example
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I go on a plane..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I realise this plane before in the past
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: has flown several missions
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: sucessfuly
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I am assuming again
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: it will do the same
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I have FAITH in that situation
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: all will go well
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: but its well reasoned..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I hope I dont have to use a parachute
    squirrel624: yes, but in this example, you have a situation that you can rather be assured of, since the plane exists, and has been shown repeatedly to be in service, and sound mechanically. thru observation you conclude that it is safe, and will fly with you in it, this conclusion can be reached by many many people at the same time in an objective way, and is demostrable. it is really not faith, but reasoned conclusion. know what i mean?
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: yes I agreee. but for me faith means belief..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: and I am really assuming
    squirrel624: i see.
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: that I will get their.. although..
    squirrel624: so, would you say belief equals knowledge?
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: its a REASONABLE assumption if the two can coincide.
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I will say this quoted from Prophet Muhammeed..
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: I do not like the believer who is ignorant do nor to I like the scholar who does not belive..."
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: the beliver who is ignorant is doing so out of just that IGNORANCE...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: the scholar out of any one should be able to put some things together and realise their is greater wisdom... to be sought..
    squirrel624: and of that wisdom points to the non existance of a god?
    squirrel624: i have 4 definitons of faith----

    the_faith_of_ibrahim: wisdom points to the non existance of...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: A god that needs sons...or has a penis...
    squirrel624: 1) Faith as trust for an important belief. So whether or not the faith is good depends on the reliability of what one trusts in, and whether the believer knows it to be reliable.
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: the belief in many competing gods...
    squirrel624: 2) Faith as not necessarily a “sure belief”, but rather an only hope. Examples would be Pascal’s Wager or hoping that if your stranded on an island and build a fire, a plane will see it and rescue you, even though no plane may see it. So you don’t necessarily believe the plane will come though you might tell yourself it will, for motivation, because if it doesn’t come it doesn’t matter that you built the fire cause your dead
  • the_faith_of_ibrahim: O.K the first one is interesting indeed..
    squirrel624: 3) Faith presumed to mean “believing without evidence”. This is a popular definition, popularized by “believer’s” that don’t realize how stupid it is to “believe without evidence”, and non-religious types who use these believers as straw men, or they have a deferent way of defining “belief” or “evidence”, then I do.
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: seccond one is def christianity lol
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: o.k the fourth??
    squirrel624: 4) Faith as “trust in god”, which means trust in a supposed prophet of “God”, or for one who thinks they are a prophet who talks to God, trust that burning bushes tell the truth, etc. This vague definition usually comes from the bible, in this culture. A roman soldier is given a pat on the head for believing that jesus could heal his child from a long distance. “blessed are those who believe without seeing”. “faith is… the evidence of things unseen”. It is somewhat unclear whether the bible is saying that it has logical evidence for god, even though one may not see the evidence with their eyes, or whether it is saying that it does not even have logical type evidence.
    squirrel624: One argument for the latter is that logical evidence would keep people from having the freedom to choose what to believe, though it seems to me it would also make them fools for believing. I wouldn’t knowingly believe what I could choose not to, I believe what I am forced to by the evidence. The only choice is whether or not to dig for the evidence
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: GOOD POINTS
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: SOLID MASHALLAH
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: excellent...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: YOU READ ALOT EH??
    squirrel624: yes i do
    squirrel624: i try to be up to date on the theology stuff, as it would be stupid of me to argue against something i have no clue about
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: true...
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: Do you think the Universe is self existant??
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: or that there is an infinite number of chain of events that keeps going an going and goin?
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: to me that answer lies alot of truth...
    squirrel624: hard to say. i am not that well versed in that area...all i can give is speculation, and poor ones at that
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: <<is interested in hearing your specualtion about it...
    squirrel624: well i firmly believe we will never "know" as we were not there when it all began if it indeed had a begining. we can make up all types of theory as to what and why and how, but it all rests upon the fact we do not "know" or ever will. Thus to me it is a non point, and useless in debates and such. Since we define reality limited to our own perceptions about the universe, we have a "belief" as to the origins of the universe.
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: very true...
    squirrel624: I believe it is possible that it has existed always. but came into "existance" once the reasoning abilities formed in man.
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: good point subhanAllah!!!!!!
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: basically taught man that which he knew not???
    squirrel624: hmmm you could see it that way yes.
    squirrel624: lol

    squirrel624: well my friend i need to run off to work, and play slave boy for a few hours.
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: LOOOOOOOL SLAVE BOY EH??
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: PLEASE KEEP IN TOUCH and let me say lastly..
    squirrel624: take care, and i hope to converse more with youo... this was fun, and completely
    squirrel624: non agressive...says alot about the christinas huh?
    squirrel624: oops christians...

    the_faith_of_ibrahim: any good you have recied from me ...All praise be to Allah and any mistakes in Conveying anything to you about this IS only from myself....
    the_faith_of_ibrahim: peace be unto you
    squirrel624: thank you friend, till later... and be good in the sheep rooms

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