Lord of the Sheep!!!From: To: Posted: Subject:
Ok, I am quite possibly about to offend you. If I do I apologize ahead of time but something is really sticking in my craw and if I don't get it out I will eventually end up leaving Jemsite for good. Let me preface what I have to say by saying I have no problems with you personally. I really respect you as a person and think you're a real nice guy. On any other subject I would party with you, jam with you, talk with you, etc. without a second thought. But ... Your religious views and your barely hidden proselytizing OFFEND me! I have been forced to stop reading entire threads because of the anger that began to rise inside me half way through. You believe in the Christian religion and that is fine. I have no problem with that but I don't believe in your religion nor do I want to be witnessed to. I am repulsed and insulted by it. Don't pose your religious views as facts. They aren't. They are your interpretation of a belief system and no more then that. If you think otherwise you are diluting yourself. Remember this, there is no proof at all that your god exists or that your 'truth' is correct outside of it's own framework. Please, believe as you wish but don't go shoving it down our throats. Now, why does it offend me? It's a long story but I'll cut it short. You see, I grew up in the Christian religion. Though I never believed in it, I was forced to be a part of it, I didn't have a choice. I am the son of abusive and domineering parents who also happened to be Pentecostals. I don't mean abusive as in getting spanked when I did something wrong, like so many today think they were abused. Discipline is a practice of love, not abuse. I mean things like my mother waving a 9mm pistol in my father's face over a telephone number and blowing a hole in the wall to prove her point. I mean my mother standing on my chest and beating my head into a cement floor. I mean my family attempting to systematically destroy any and all ambitions or dreams that didn't have to do with the church or went contrary to it's views in my parents mind. This included, but was far from restricted to, my guitar playing. Your god and your religion never did anything to stop it. In fact I have seen so much evil done in your god's name that it sickens me. It sickens me when someone like you believes just because they have religion they have a license to ignore rules and trample on other people with impunity. In fact, I HATE your religion and anything that has to do with it. It's that bad with me. I want NOTHING to do with your religion in any way. Your church/religion calls anything evil that it can't (1) understand/explain, (2) fit into it's own framework or (3) control. That's fact, just look at history. Galileo was sentenced to house arrest for life and almost executed because he said the earth was not only NOT flat but that it was not the center of the universe, as the church taught. This is just one of MANY examples I can give. Does 'the crusades' and 'the Spanish inquisition' mean anything to you? Did you know that Hitler was a practicing Christian and believed the systematic slaughter of Jews to be a divine and god sanctioned act? He saw himself as a knight of god and doing his (god's) work! I believe he was wrong, don't you? UFOs, if they exist, aren't necessarily demons in demonic flying machines nor are ghosts necessarily 'familiar spirits'. The FACT is that no one can explain these phenomena - that doesn't make it evil in origin, just unexplained. Nor are they evil just because someone interpreted the bible as saying that they were. Nor are they evil just because some things are NOT mentioned in the bible - yes, I have heard phenomena demonized for that reason also. Nor are they evil just because they don't fit into the Christian religion's framework. They are unexplained - period. Remember, the earth not being round or the center of the universe goes against scripture - or is that just someone's interpretation? Come on man, this is a guitar forum. You're not in church nor do we all need to be saved - regardless of what you've been taught. Besides, reread the forum rules; RELIGIOUS discussion is forbidden! I am asking you as a friend, since it offends me so much, can you please stop turning threads into religious discussions? I would REALLY appreciate it. And I'm not alone. I believe in and enjoy a lifestyle that you would probably not find stomachable. You would probably think some of my views are wrongheaded, bad, or even evil. And I can back them up with scripture too. The difference is you don't see me trying to spread my views on my chosen lifestyle because I know that they would offend some. Can you show the same courtesy? Please ... LJ
From: To: Posted: Subject:
Let me help you to understand me a bit. I grew up similar as you except I was the one pointing a gun
at my mothers head wanting to pull the trigger. my mother beat me, kicked me, threw dishes at me, duck taped
my face, head together all between the age of 8-12 It has been7 years now and that's my story. I was destined for death and now I have life. So the fact that I am a walking miracle and have been directly
healed by the Father, How could I not believe. As far as MY church/religion that you stated, i must say that
i claim no part of a religious ties to any church or any political
consesus that will deviate from the Bible. I too disagree with
most of the churches conception on religion.
Scott
To: Posted: Subject:
Well, it seems we come from simillar backgrounds. But the fact still remains that your experinces with your god/belief system/religion, whatever we're going to call it, is no more then subjective experience. You experienced it the way you did and it's different for everyone. How do I explain it? Well, the easy way is to say that it is believed that we tend to use only 10% of our grey matter. The other 90% has got to be good for something. Even people who don't believe in your god have been documented as having experienced 'miracles' and/or unexplainable phenomena. Your belief system doesn't corner the market in that area. The mind is a powerful thing, we still don't know what all it's capable of doing. Bugs Bunny once said "It's wonderful what one can do when one doesn't know that one can't do it," and I think that makes a lot of sense in this case. This still doesn't prove your belief system's validity or excuse the fact that you are purpously breaking forum rules, regardless of your intentions. I am truly happy that your religious (I'm sorry for using that word again but it IS a religion) experience makes you feel as good as it does and has turned your life around. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. But it hasn't for me and I want no part of it. We could debate this until judgement day, to coin a phrase, but I'd rather not. I am asking you as a civilised person and as a friend, knowing that your intentions are good, to please refrain from proselytising, quoting scripture or posing your religious beliefs as facts in the forum. Regardless of your intentions, it still does and will always offend me. LJ ++++++++++++++++++++ From: To: Posted: Subject:
When others breach forum rules, do you email them against their bhuddims or muslim views? you asking me to not be me is the very essence of who i am
in the Lord. So it seems we're at in impass on this. Had my comments been to any extreme level at all, Glen would have been the first one to email me. Re red thw rules, Religious debate is not arbitrary, but stating aones views is more than forum legal as long as it doesnt breach that boundary. I know i tend to teter that sometimes but for the most part i am pretty reverent to those rules. I hope you understand... Scott
To: Posted: Subject:
First off, read what I say, not what you expect me to say. To intimate that I am asking you to deny your beliefs is a bunch of bull. That is neither what I said nor what I meant in any way, shape or form. Just don't shove it down my throat IS all I am asking. To ask you to deny your god/religious beliefs would be like asking you to saw off your leg. I know that. I am not asking that of you nor am I asking you to, as you seem to want to believe, give up your religious beliefs or even deny that they exist. Asking you to 'deny' your belief in god would be to ask you to say 'no' when asked if you believe in god. I would never ask that of you. Your belief does not offend me. Your proselytizing does. Your quoting scripture as if it were fact and law, does. Why is that so hard for you to understand and accept? Example: Do I spread my beliefs of BDSM at every chance? No. Do I try to convince everyone that women should only be subservient to men? No. Can I back that up and validate these views with scripture? Yes. Furthermore, do I go through the threads saying how much I believe women should be made to kneel in a man's presence, call him Sir or Master and cater to his every whim? No. Why? Because I know that not everyone holds these views and some would be violently opposed and offended. Do I mind that? No, I think it's healthy. Do I believe everyone would be happier, in their day to day lives if they accepted these views? In truth, yes. Do I believe and enjoy these things in my personal life? Yes. Do I know an abundant amount of folks who believe the same way? YES! Am I 'denying' my views in not putting them up for public display? No, just not throwing them at everyone. Is that SOOOO much to ask? I don't think so. Would you want me to be spouting these views at you whenever I have the chance? I certainly doubt it.
As far as Glen having a problem, I know for a fact that he has spoken to you on this matter before and you obviously ignored it. Just as you are going to ignore my request now. You are typical of the christians that I have met in the past because you think that you have 'the truth' and it gives you a liscense to do as you please. You wield your religion like a weapon and enjoy it when someone takes offence because you believe it validates your position. You believe that anyone who doesn't want your 'truth' forced on them is automatically persecuting you and/or your religion and that they are automaitcally anti-christian/god/religion so therefore you don't feel so bad about stepping on their toes. It's exactly people like you who turned me away from your religion/god in the first place. Again, I am not asking you to deny your religion. Hey, believe in talking donkeys and talking burning bushes all you want. Live it up and be happy. I mean that, with no irony or sarcasm intended. Just don't try to convince me to do the same just to make you feel better about it. Look Scott. I didn't come looking for a fight or to make problems for you. I am not asking you to give up your religion or 'deny' it or your god. I am just asking you not to force me and others to view it. Is that truly so much to ask? LJ ++++++++++++++++++++++ From: To: Posted: Subject:
Its sad that you want to group me with them as i am very far
from that practise. But i will tell, is that you have me pegged ALL wrong with
those accusations you threw out. As far as me ramming it down your throat{s) At no time have i rammed anything on anyone. i have always been careful to not to do that so i find it comical that you accuse me of thus. I state my thoughts pertaining to topic... yes, with scipture
at times, and even elaborate a little too much when prompted
by others in the thread, but thats no different than referencing
the a manual for something of refernce, Not that its the same
but an analogy. trust me, i know what ramming it down is and if thats what
you really think i have done then perhaps you have sooo much
bitterness about this topic and its overflowing with the smallest
statements. But if you still feel that way, its ok. My only motivation is really just compassion...
To: Posted: Subject:
Quote: Excellent analogy but there's a bit of a problem. A trem's manual is written by the designer about a REAL object. The object can be proven to exist over and over again to anyone at any time. The bible on the other hand was written by MAN, not god and the subject is not provable, only subjective. Even the men who study the bible can't agree on what it says. Even the believers of this same book can't agree with each other on what is meant. There are false translations throughout this 'manual' and chapters have been taken away from the original, with some put back later on the whim of folks who lived hundreds and even thousands of years after the original was set to paper. In our own lifetimes the bible has been rewritten and reinterpreted. Over thansands of years of this treatment there is, more then likely, little of the original meaning left. I'm sorry, but any sane man would start to question the validity of that book after that knowledge was brought to light. Not only that but I'd be scared as hell to drive in a car that had this kind of a book for a manual. Yes, this is a subject that is very touchy with me. I believe I said that earlier. It obviously means little to you. Which is WHY I group you with the rest of christians I have met. I have yet to see you say you will curb spewing your religious views in my presence, let alone stopping it all together. On the contrary, I have come away with the distinct feeling you are telling me 'Sorry it offends you but tough sh1t. I'm in the right and I can do what I want 'cause my book says so'. I have shown you how I can muzzle my touchy topics, can't you do the same? LJ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: To: Posted: Subject: i quite agree with you about the translation of the Bible. anyways... Todays bible is full of things that are not quite correct. thats why we use a bible that is a direct translation from the scrolls. anyways, i know what you mean about the pride topic but thats just not the case, i only continue to refer to things in our correspondance because it is relevant to our discussion. where do you see me puffed up and boasting? we all have our choice and thats the bottom line.
To: Posted: Subject: vwall wrote: It's full of contradictions. If you want a list I can get you one. But, being a good christian you would be in denial about this and anything I showed you. So that would be a waste of time. Trust me, I've seen it before. Quote: The bible has been written from copies of other copies of other copies by hand so often before the printing press came out that it does NOT say what it said originally. One copyist interprets what it says into the latest modern laguage and so on over centuries. Just look at a bible from 100 years ago and read one from today. They will not corralate. That's not false doctrine, that's demostrable truth. You'd like to think it otherwise though, wouldn't you? If it weren't otherwise then your personal truth (read faith) would be in question. No, denial is the best course ... obviously. Hey, it's served your bretheren for a couple thousand years so far, why stop now? Quote: Todays bible is full of things that are not quite correct. thats why we use a bible that is a direct translation from the scrolls.” Fact is, the original texts don't even exist anymore and haven't, in the case of the old testament, for thousands of years. Also, look up the Council of Nicea and the vote on what to keep and what to drop of the original texts. What we know as the bible today is the direct product of this council. Many books were dropped as not being 'devinely inspired'. A few were later put back in, as in the case of the book of Revalations. Quote: where do you see me puffed up and boasting? I never said you were puffed up and boasting. There are many variations of pride. One is not to drop a subject for fear of looking inferior or unworthy. Even at the cost of harming another. And I was talking about your religious posts in the forum, and your refusal to stop even if you offend someone, not our discussion in PM. Quote: No, you have quoted scripture to boost your views of things as if it were truth. When in actuallity all you have is a belief based on a document that is not able to be proven as factual. If you had said 'I believe' it to be so, that would be one thing but instead you simply said 'it is so' because my manual says so. Quote: Really? You've made your point in the forums. You're a believer. Your devine truth has been spread, so why continue if it offends others? Why not 'knock the dust from your feet' as your bible says, and move on (in a phylisophical sense of course, not asking you to leave Jemsite just 'cause I have a problem with your religion, honest.). Answer me this: If this devine truth of your's is so universal, correct, and perfect, i.e. directly from god, why does he need you to spread it? It should be inherant and obvious to all without your help. If it's so powerful then how do you explain non belief? If it was as perfect a truth as you'd like to think then it would be accessible to all. Quote: Sounds to me like 'I'll continue to say what I want on in the forums on this subject, although it's against the forum rules and offends you, and it's your choice whether you believe it or not,'. Guess what, you can't yell 'FIRE!' in a theater either. It offends people ... like policemen, judges, fire officials, etc ... you gonna use that line on them too? But, let's talk about free will for a moment. You believe your god to be omnipotent, correct? If god is omnipotent then he KNOWS everything that has ever happened, is happening now and WILL EVER HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE. If this is true then free will is impossible. He KNOWS what you are going to do before you do it. Therefore, you are not making FREE choices so much as playing a predestined part in a cosmic play. You can not say it's otherwise. You can't have it both ways. Did you ever think about this? According to your bible, god created Lucifer, correct? Knowing full well what he would do and what he would become. Defacto, he condoned what was to happen. He knowingly created the scourge of mankind and set it loose on his creation. This is an all loving god? This is an all merciful god? 'God is love' and does this? and to what end? To, by default, tempt his creation then chastise and punish those that give into that temptaion? For what? For his own glory and edification? In Genesis it says that god created the universe and everything in it, including man, because he was lonely. If god is all powerful would he be lonely or choose to be lonely? If he is perfect and all powerful, would he create a universe that he knows ahead of time will eventually destroy itself? Would he create a head angel that would eventually turn on him and become the very embodyment of evil and entropy? Or was that a goof? No, god is perfect, he can't goof. So he did it on purpous. Hmmmm ... doesn't sound like a god I want to worship or even have any part of. Your 'truth' is not truth for everyone nor is it the only 'truth'. Get used to it. Some of us don't want your 'truth' nor do we have to hear it just because you think it's better for us. I don't want your witnessing. I don't want to read it, or hear it or see it. It offends me, violently. Please stop. If you wish to keep going with this debate in PM that is fine, and I even welcome it. But in the forums is another matter. I would like to be able to read any given thread without being afraid of having to deal with your false god and unenlightened views of an outdated religion. Also, I believe Glen, the onwer, has the same want. LJ |
